Horizontal vs. vertical machining centers | Practical Machinist

The real questions are, how much money do you have and how good are you at machining? Horizontals cost a lot. They are better in many ways, but they are more complex in every way. Sure the chips fall out of the holes, and in most cases you get some sort of "B" axis. But do you really need that?

Most jobs that are in the quantities that you state, I wouldn't run on my horizontals. To much setup time, to much machine. K.I.S.S Keep it simple stupid. High production = horizontal.
Can you justify the costs of a horizontal with short run work that doesn't need a "B" axis. (or 2" deep holes,) I can't. If you need a "B" axis, that's another story. I currently have a 500pc job on mine. But I need that "b" axis to cut out 2 other setups.

If I was starting out and learning, I would get a nicely tooled, used, 40" vertical mill. (Mid size machine, sub plate) Thru the spindle coolant would be nice. Something with a conversational control or at least cheap parts. Keep your costs down to a minimum. Because if your not cutting you can't spread that overhead out over the 3 other machines that are running. You only have yourself. Cash flow becomes stressful.

But if you have the money....not a loan...and are good enough to use a Horizontal to it's fullest...you already know what to get.

Another note, I dropped 7 grand on 2 matched 4 sided tombstones and vises. And that wasn't a rip off. Money....I could buy a nice new KIA for 7 grand. (I hate foreign cars)

Just my 2 cents, I could be wrong. I am only a 26 year old dumbass kid. Good luck to you. Well, I'm old enough to be the 26 yr old dumbass kid's daddy, but I think the kid's giving excellent advice, and solid reasons to back it up.

First, there's the cost. I was looking at a new Mori 400mm HMC (about the size you'd need for the parts you mentioned) just yesterday that a friend put into operation in his shop about a month ago. Including tombstones, vises, and toolholders, it was $360,000. Machines from the latter half of the 90's will often be in the $100K range, and a lot of them will have well in excess of 20,000 hours on the clock. At first glance they may seem to drop in price faster than verticals, but when you start comparing hours of run time instead of strictly year models, the depreciation curves are a whole lot more equal. People generally buy HMC's because they've got the work to keep one running, and at the going price its obvious you'd better keep it running.

Then there's the learning curve. My friend has over 15yrs experience in mill and lathe programming, and he's got a young guy who does his programming now that's real sharp, and yet he says the programming on the horizontal has been a real challenge for both of them since neither had that experience prior to this. He does a lot of production parts with operations on multiple faces, which is one major reason for going with the horizontal, but he says the "now its here, now its there, now its over yonder" method definitely takes some getting used to as compared to flipping parts in vises and generally working off the same point in successive ops.

Verticals are versatile machines from the standpoint of being able to knock out a program, throw some stock in the vise, and make a part or 2 almost blindfolded once you're used to the machine. Horizontals aren't nearly so quick and easy to set up, and you don't typically just keep a vise on one in case you happen to need it for a part or 2.

Just my own opinion, but I think a lot of people underuse their verticals in situations where they have decent lot sizes of things that repeat. A little time and money spent on a fixture that will carry 20 parts will quickly pay for itself and start making money over the same machine with a couple or three vises running the same part with the operator chained to the machine to swap parts. Not only does the operator not have time to do much of anything else, but the machine run time suffers too due to downtime for toolchanges and swapping blanks. When you're running all you can run on a vertical, and using every possible square inch of the table for every cycle, and you still need more, then its time to think about a horizontal. I have two mori-seiki sh-400 machines and one nv- vertical. If I had to do it all over again I would have three horizontals and no vertical. You can do much more with the horizontals with one setup than any vertical would allow. I can get to most any angle I need to be machining with one setup.
As far as programming, the only difference is the "B" axis. I usually assign a different work shift to each side or angle I machine. G54 is at zero degrees, G55 might be at 60 degrees and so on. About 95% of what we do are castings. If you get yourself a horizontal, be sure to purchase the extra workshift option. (G54.1, G54.2 etc)
I paid approximatley $235,000 for the horizontals with a few nice options. The nv- was around $200K with a pallet shuttle and some other options. All machines were purchased new however the horizontals are about four years old. The nv-500 is about 8 months old.
I have a total of 17 pieces of cnc equipment. My old pallet changer was a pain. For short run stuff it looked great in theory to me. Two tables, that I could put all the fixtures and vises on that I could use. But I found that it was a real pain in the butt to get into the machine to touch off parts. Due to the location of the control on an extended arm away from the machine (and away from the pallet changer) I hated it, I need binoculars to see the parts and my edge finder.

I also hated using it for medium production. I had to set all the locations the same so that you could use either pallet at any time. (I hope you understood that) The operator could load the wrong pallet and destroy something otherwise. I hated that manual pallet changer. I want one that the machine knows which pallet is in it, that way it doesn't matter about part location being equal with the pallets.

I sold it when an operator thought the machine was in the correct location for a pallet change, only to have the table be 10 inches back in the Y (front loader type). He dropped it into the machine crushing my way covers and damaging the ways.

If I could get a pallet changer that the machine knew which one was in it (either manual or auto) and a control that was closer to the inside (or a remote manual pulse generator) that would be awesome. They do look good. To answer ARB's question, this would be the first cnc for me. Also I have NO expierience on cnc programmng or operating to speak of. I will be taking a course in September to get my feet wet so too speak. I also have a friend to give me help after that. After checking on prices I would have to say that horizontal is out at this time. I think a vertical is the way to go for me right now. I have some fixtures in mind that would help keep machine running. I would bolt down a base plate and make two removable top plates with parts on them. While one is running I can unload and reload the next run and have pins and bushings to line up plates together. I have it all in mmy head but not on paper yet... how many of you guys do that?!. Thanks again for the advice, it is always great to get help from those who know more than I.


Bill

Cost is always a prime consideration; However, there is a huge difference between initial cost and overall cost.

For example, a vertical machining center (VMC) typically has a lower initial purchase price than a horizontal machining center (HMC). So if your shop specializes in machining large, flat workpieces that require a single operation, a quality Okuma VMC may be an excellent option. However, if you often work on various sizes of prismatic parts, an HMC is a better choice.

For more information, please visit our website.

But what about that initial price difference?

That’s where looking at the overall cost of operation comes in. You see, when it comes to machining multi-sided parts, a HMC can save you considerable time and money. How? By eliminating much of the part handling associated with VMCs. In fact a number of studies, including those by The University of Michigan and American Machinist, find that the average VMC utilization, as measured by spindle run time, is only 25% versus 85% for HMCs.

It’s not hard to see why

Machining a six-sided part, for example, on a vertical machining center typically requires the operator to move the part seven or more times – in and out, and from fixture-to-fixture.

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This means:

• Increased labor cost
• Considerable spindle downtime
• Increased potential for mechanical or human error that can lead to scrap and rework

On the other hand

A horizontal machining center will handle a six-sided part with no more than three touches by the operator. And, as we know, in a manufacturing world in which lean translates to increased efficiency and profitability, the fewer times a part is touched, the better. Moreover, the part movements are all made within the machining cycle, so no spindle time is wasted.

All of this, of course, makes perfect sense for long production runs. But what about short runs?

In most instances we find that, because of its versatility, one HMC replaces four VMCs. That means one operator in-2.0 VMC VS. HMC stead of four, so your operators can be far more productive while you reduce labor costs per part. It also means paying for fewer fixtures, and increasing throughput thanks to less setup time and greater spindle utilization. Plus, with reduced part handling there’s less room for error, so it’s easier to maintain product quality.

For all of these reasons, it’s worth taking a hard look at your applications and consider choosing a horizontal machining center for your next productivity tool. The manufacturing technology experts at Gosiger can help you find the right CNC machine for your unique operation. They have all of the facts on Okuma HMCs for general machining, heavy machining and high speed machining needs.

For more Vertical Machining Center for saleinformation, please contact us. We will provide professional answers.